I keep on going back to Hyv3mynd's post A Tyranid Unit Worth Taking, and thinking about the units I want to play with and how they fit into my new 6th lists. Lately I've been trying out a couple of different builds, taking out high priced HQs and rotating in a few units that I've been meaning to use.
Before I go into a unit-by-unit breakdown, I'd like to asks the community at large, What units have you seen change in the 6th ed switch. Good or bad. I'll just cover a few here, but I'd also like to hear from you. Each of our local metas are different, and you're going to have different experiences than me. I'd love to see how your units are working. In what scenarios are they doing well? Or are they tanking?
Before I go into a unit-by-unit breakdown, I'd like to asks the community at large, What units have you seen change in the 6th ed switch. Good or bad. I'll just cover a few here, but I'd also like to hear from you. Each of our local metas are different, and you're going to have different experiences than me. I'd love to see how your units are working. In what scenarios are they doing well? Or are they tanking?
I want to start with a unit I love, the Ripper Swarm:
Ripper Swarms are a unit that I desperately want to make work. When I think of Tyranid fluff, swarms of aliens pouring over Imperial defenses, these little guys come to mind. In 5th, I liked to use them quite a bit. You could get an easy 4+ cover save on them, and with the Swarm special rule, you could make that a 3+. Because a basic unit clocks in at 90 points, I had no problem going to ground for the improved save. So, you have a mobile cover granting unit that could get a 2+ save, brilliant!
How about now? 5+ cover is the new norm, and they no longer get stealth. Because they're fearless, no going to ground either. Couple that with the 5+ cover save they confer, they've lost their staying power and their protective effects.
I've taken them in the last few events, and I don't really expect them to do much (the bar iis set pretty low), but in the last 6 games they haven't contributed the the battle at all. Maybe they attracted the attention of fire from some of my other units, but even then it wasn't much. I take them for fun and to add a little goofiness to my army, but when they're destroyed so easily, even the fun of them is taken away.
Instead of running a Tyrant or the Swarmlord, I've been going cheap: Prime
This is an idea I've been thinking about for a while. Taking a Tyrant and the obligatory Guard adds up quickly, especially if you're like me and take 2. I decided to liberate the 400+ point deathstar and go with the guy above. Clocking in around 100 points, he's worked fantastically. He's cheap, but he's still a beatstick. In the past 6 games, he hasn't died and has been the anchor for my forces.
I'm not sure if he changed that much with the new edition (posion does work a bit better on him now), but the meta has changed. Small, high priced units don't seem to be getting the job done. During these last few events, I've been surprised by how many bodies I've been able to field now that I have the points for them. While he hasn't himself been greatly affected, the unit size shift has favored his inclusion.
The last unit I wanted to cover for now is the Lictor
I'm not sure if he changed that much with the new edition (posion does work a bit better on him now), but the meta has changed. Small, high priced units don't seem to be getting the job done. During these last few events, I've been surprised by how many bodies I've been able to field now that I have the points for them. While he hasn't himself been greatly affected, the unit size shift has favored his inclusion.
The last unit I wanted to cover for now is the Lictor
Who else loves the model? My problem is that I send them into high risk situations, unsupported and expect them to do something. I need to take my own advise and stop doing it. In effect, the lictor is in reserves for at least 2 turns: Turn 1 is normal reserves and Turn 2 (assuming it comes in) he is on the board but is doing nothing. You can't do much with it for at least 2 turns. With this in mind, you can formulate a few strategies.
In terms of how the 6th shift affected the lictor, not too much. There's the reduction in normal cover save (4+ --> 5+), but that's about it. The reserve bonus is helpful, but not much to write home about.
What do you guys think? What are some units that you didn't take before, that are doing better now? How about old faithful units that are tanking?
Thanks for reading,
What do you guys think? What are some units that you didn't take before, that are doing better now? How about old faithful units that are tanking?
Thanks for reading,
-Crispy
I really like genestealers, but they don't cut it for me, also ymgarl gets pricey. Well, zoanthropes are cool, but easily gives away first blood against missile launchers and such. The model i really would like to make work is venomthropes! Alas, they too easily die to first blood...
ReplyDeleteI know what you mean when it comes to regular stealers. With the broodlord able to get power, I thought they'd be awesome, but in reality they've gotten softer. Reduced cover, not being able to assault from reserves.... yeah.
DeleteIn term of Ymgarls, I have to say that they've received a minor bump. Yeah, they're expensive, but they're now the only unit that can assault the turn they come on. And with +1T with their mutation, you can survive overwatch a little more.
That's true, i'm not saying they are bad in any way. I'd like to try them out a little more. I was thinking taking 8 should be just right? Any thoughts?
Delete8 or 10 have been working fine for me. As I said above, I freed up a ton of points, so I've been running 10 easily.
DeleteIn both editions, they've been my MVPs. They can generally be sent out unsupported and take out a large chunk of the opposition. 8-10 guys is a good number for assaulting most generalist units. The usually lock the first round of combat and kill everything else the 2nd. This is all terrain dependent.
I am still a fan of the idea of Psychic Choir Tyranids using Genestealer units (at least in theory). It seems like a cheap way to run a lot of buffers for the army that can also become pretty beastly in CC if they get in.
DeleteGenestealers are kind hard to use nowdays. Even in 5th, they got cut down fairly easily, and now it's easier. A lot of it has to do with luck. First you have to get a good power. You have 2 chances out of 6, so it's not that bad. Then you have to cast the power, which is usually going to be a buff, so no deny the witch. Then, if it's Iron arm, you have to get another good roll.
DeleteThat said, I've had some stupid Broodlords under my control. 8 S&T is GREAT! but, it only happened when I was already winning.
I'm gonna keep on trying them though.
I'd argue that 4/6 powers are good for the Broodlords (the only ones being "bad" are those that are witchfires and therefore, can't be used). Endurance and Enfeedble are clearly the best to me, but Iron Arm & Quickening are still fantastic, as they increase the damage output and survivability of the model (though Quickening, not so much on the duraility).
DeleteI rarely find myself having many problems using 'stealers now. I most often run them as I did in the past, as Broodlord Deployment Mechanisms (BDMs), so just a squad of five with one upgraded to a broodlord. He stays in the middle/back to prevent him dying as if he was T4, and hopefully throws around Enfeebles/Endurances to nearby units. Most often, my 'stealers seem to make it to combat. And running the small squads gives me more chances to get the powers that I really want. I'd say that in my average games, I tend to roll Biomancy powers for 4-5 different psykers in my army, so I'm almost assured at least one Enfeeble/Endurance, and hopefully have some Tervigons backing me up for generic FNP.
Glad to hear that you're going to stick with them. Aside from Tervigons, I think BDMs are the best troop option available in 6th edition.
I was critical of ymgarls due to the addition of over watch, change to cover, and pulling models from the front. We're lucky in our region to play on terrain heavy tables and use the player-set terrain method which mitigates a lot of the potential problems ymgarls may face.
DeleteI ran a block of 20 stealer with a brood lord at our December event and was underwhelmed mainly due to anecdotal experiences with improbable reserve rolls and assault results. Assault based scoring units rarely make it into the late game scoring positions in my experience, but that could be a result of my play style.
I like the idea of BDMs, but the times I've tried it, it hasn't worked well for me. It's okay, but they don't work as well as they did in 5th. On the table, what are some strategies you use for them? Do you use them as counter assault units? Objective squatters?
DeleteI don't know that I have defined roles/strategies for my BDMs. If you'll excuse the plug, I do battle reports of every game I've played in 6th edition over at my blog: http://warhammer39999.com, so you can feel free to dig through those.
DeleteIf I think about it, the general strategies seem to change based upon the skills they roll up. If they get Endurance (and nothing else), I tend to hide them behind my lines, next to MC's and the like--or otherwise near key targets that I want to have FNP. In that capacity, their purpose isn't to do damage, but they fill more of a support role. Ones that wind up with only Iron Arm/Quickening wind up surging to the front in an attempt to get into combat. Those that have Enfeeble tend to move forward as well, but they might not exactly be "front line" units.
Five man squads are quite fragile (especially considering they only have a 5+ armor save), but in my experience, few units really have enough firepower to take an entire squad down in a single round of shooting. It seems ridiculous to think that, but even 10 bolters double-tapping will only hit a little over 13 times and wound less than seven. You'll wind up getting three armor saves after that, and if you're in cover or have FNP, you'll survive against that as well. Sure, it's just math-hammer, but it has it's place. 5-man devastator squads are really unlikely to kill the entire squad as well.
The most important thing is keeping the broodlord alive. The 'stealers, while decent, don't have either the punch, or the psychic support powers that the big guy has. So, I don't worry if I've lost all of his squad mates.
Some other tricks to consider:
- Squads are wounded on majority toughness, so if you can get it to the point where an Iron Arm'd lord is in with a single stealer, they'll have to wound the stealer on whatever his inflated toughness is. This is also true in general with his T5.
- In any combat where you're at risk of losing the Lord, you can typically issue a challenge to increase his survivability. Head to head, he does pretty good against most foes.
- Psychic powers can be used while the BL is in an assault; likewise they can be used on units that are already in an assault. So, if he's in combat, he can still buff his strength/toughness, or enfeeble his opponent.
I think in general, people also tend to have a lower target priority on my BDMs, due to other immediate threats. Raveners are quick and can throw them off kilter early. People like to kill Tervigons quickly as well. Having genestealers acting as a "second wave" gives them a cover save from the units in front of them, plus gives the opponent something to worry about that might be higher priority.
Just some thoughts...
I love the Lictor as my favorite Tyranid model and fluff creature. Unfortunately the rules are just so bad =/
ReplyDeleteWas thinking these guys over also since I have 3 painted up and they look menacing on the table. The way I see it, they're only viable as late game linebreaker or denial units. In a " purge the alien" scenario, they're probably not going to reap a lot of victory points as they're a pretty easy point and vulnerable the turn they arrive.
DeleteDeathleaper is also very cool, with much psykers around, but as an allround list kind of guy i find it easier to just shoot the psykers :P
ReplyDeleteHormogaunts! Take hormogaunts! I NEVER took them in 5th. They couldn't get anything done. Now however I run 2 30-strong man units. 360pts for 60 bodies is nice and cheap for what they do. They're generally getting across the board by turn 2 because of bounding leap and when they rage oh man do they pour out the attacks. If I can I try and get enfeeble off on what I'm charging with dropped zoanthropes or a flyrant. Give them a try they do wonders. Use your terrain wisely or even venomthropes (who are still 'eh') for cover and they are a terror oddly enough.
ReplyDeleteAlso biovores. 2 squads of 2 is great for blobs and weapon teams. They're much easier to use and keep alive.
Hormagaunts w/ toxin sacs have always been in my lists, they eat anything with a toughness value via number of attacks :)
DeleteI'd say Genestealers have gotten better in the new edition--not because they have, but because Broodlords have access to Biomancy. Despite the fact that their standard powers are quite good, the chances of getting Enfeeble or Endurance are worth rolling the dice for me. To date, I've never rolled up a Broodlord with 0 usable powers.
ReplyDeleteYmgarls are better because, as Crispy said, they're about the only thing that can assault the turn they arrive. Technically speaking, they're equivalent to what they used to be; however, since virtually everything else lost the ability to charge the turn they arrive, these have become comparably better. Often people will have lulled themselves into a false sense of security.
Doom is better (not that he wasn't already insane), thanks in large part to the new FAQ with gives him a 6" disembarkation.
Swarmlord is better due to his access to Biomancy. His odds of getting Iron Arm are fantastic, and he's practically unstoppable with that.
Biovores are far better with the changes to wound allocation and the fact that they're rated a barrage weapon. Again, this isn't a change to the unit, but allows it to break a rule that most units can't; therefore allowing it to negate saves from things like Aegis Defense Lines, etc.
I'd say Raveners got better due to the fact that they move 12" and ignore terrain.
As a whole, I think the Tyranids received a massive bump in 6th edition. Granted, the fact that they don't get allies/emplacements and have a lot of weird rules (like a prime can't join a squad in a pod) are unfortunate, but the list is far better with the newer rules. They're my primary army, and Oddly enough, I haven't lost (or even tied) a game in 6th edition, whereas my ratio was more like 50:50 in 5th.
Something I've had on the drawing board is 20 stealers in a spore. More control to land them than outflanking and your opponent only gets 1 turn of shooting before they assault. Add the new 6" disembark and they have a huge reach turn 3/4. Just not sure if they're worth the investment yet, but I would definitely try them a few times.
ReplyDeleteI'd say it's worth consideration with the 6" deployment. I'd refused to use Devilgants for years because of how scrunched up they had to be with 2" deployment, too easy to flame them away. Combining a Genestealer deepstrike with a couple other threats up close could be very very nasty though!
DeleteThe 6" disembark is a new tool in out toolboxes that I hadn't considered before. Now I just need to make up some spores.
DeleteThe Mawloc. The improvement in blast markers, the more common foot presence and the ability to smash makes this guy an improved unit in 6th edition.
ReplyDeleteAgreed tho at ws3, they take a lot of pain from krak grenades in cc now.
DeleteI've gotta go with Harpy. Swooping gave it a much needed durability boost, it can smash attack, vector strike, and drop 3 templates. Just don't fall in the trap of thinking it can help you in assault vs. anything that can fight back ;)
ReplyDeleteIn 6th edition i see that in my list hormagaunt take place of my 2 squad of genestealer, i reduce the number of squad of hive guard from 2 to 1 (needed for the low number of vehicle on tabletop). The deathstar of 2 carnifex and a prime rock better that in 5th ed and now is played together with a swarmlord with a retinue. To add mobibility to my list also take a squad of ravener, that in Cac, supported by some psychic power, they can outnumber a squad of plaguebearer with epidemius
ReplyDeleteWhat about the Parasite?
ReplyDeleteI wanted to put him into my list.
He is a bit squishy, but I hope he can contribute as a forward synaps creature.
(Would also be a way to get some ripper swarms on the table...)
I've always thought the parasite was a decent enough unit, and I can see him acting very much like a Tyranid Prime, but with gargoyles.
Deletei've tryed it with 5 ravener and it work fine
DeleteMy typical list is Swarmy, Flyrant and two troop Tervigons with 2 terma broods. Then I add Doom in a pod, Ymgarls, Trygon, Hive Guard, Hormas and whatnot.
ReplyDeleteI haven't tried Raveners. They got me scared, just like warriors with their T4. S8 dakkadreads, psycannons and Battlecannons just mob them up.
Recently I fielded 2x15 hormas and a Flyrant for the first time in 6th. Wow! All 3 amazed me. The hormas didn't even make it into combat, but the enemy spent so much firepower wiping them that the rest of my army went untouched. The same with the Flyrant. He took a heck of a beating and still managed to take a hull point off a hellhound, a stormraven and blow up a chimera. He didn't get more done due to poor rolling and jink (snapshots).
I think 6th has made Tyranid psyhich casting incredibly potent. So the best thing 6th brought to us was Endurance, Iron Arm and last but certainly not least, Enfeeble. Enfeeble has caused my gaunts shooting and assault to have enormous potential. Grey Knights are getting eaten by Fleshborers and chewed up by spawned gaunts.